The era when "primitive methodologies" will have value will surely come. | Nue Inc. [GOTO-CHI CREATIVE! Kyoto Edition]

Kyoto is... "Cats, the Kamo River, and a dystopia."

Matsukura-san came to Kyoto during her university days, then moved to Tokyo, and then returned to Kyoto again. Nishi-san and Kitayama-san also came from Tokyo and Osaka respectively; it seems like they were all drawn to Kyoto.

Matsukura:
The main reason I like Kyoto is that it has a lot of bars, but more than anything, I had a really great time during my university days there.Kyoto is full of eccentric people, from old men who live life on their own terms to artists and researchers (laughs).

The chemical reactions that occur there are fascinating. I also felt a sense of unease with the Tokyo-centric approach, and since there were virtually no digital advertising planners in Kyoto at the time, I thought I might be able to uncover something if I returned to Kyoto.

西：
My previous job mainly involved event planning and production, and when my child was about to start elementary school, I thought, "I don't want my work and personal life to be at odds." That's when Nue was looking for its "last employee," so I applied and got the job (laughs).

Initially, the job offer was for a fully remote work arrangement, but the "Co-creation Autonomous Zone SHIKIAMI CONCON" that I visited during the interview was incredibly interesting. I thought it would be boring to work remotely when I could get such an interesting environment. So, my family and I decided to move.

Kitayama:
My previous job was at an apparel company that owned its own factory in Bangladesh, where I dealt with issues of employment in impoverished areas and child labor. As an assistant to the art director, I was also involved in photography and design to some extent, and before I knew it, I thought, "I want to keep doing this job forever!"

From there, I started looking for a job where I could be involved in both more fundamental issues and creative work, but it was hard to come across such a company, and the opportunities were really limited for someone with no industry experience. Then, by chance, I came across a job posting for Nue on X. The job description said, "Education and work experience don't matter," so I applied immediately. That's how I ended up coming to Kyoto.

What kind of city is Kyoto from your perspective? Please tell me what you find interesting about Kyoto.

Matsukura:
It's a small town, so you're bound to run into friends if you walk around. While it has a rich history and tradition, it also attracts 7000 million tourists and international visitors. I'm enjoying the dystopian, science fiction-like atmosphere.

西：
Definitely Kamogawa. Everywhere you look, you can see mountains, and while it has an easily accessible natural environment, it also has vibrant independent shops like restaurants and bookstores, and you really get to see the faces of the people. You can go anywhere with a bicycle. My friends often come to visit me, and it's my favorite town.

Indeed, Kyoto is a city where art museums, temples, bookstores, galleries, and bakeries are all condensed into one place, and you can easily get around by bicycle.

Kitayama:
I live with a cat, and I really think Kyoto is a city that's just like a cat. Coming from Osaka, the culture of some places being unwelcoming to first-time customers was a culture shock to me, and there was a sense of tension... I got the impression that there are many shops and people with a distinctive atmosphere.

But after visiting a few times, the distance gradually shrinks. They really cherish their regular customers, so before you know it, you feel like you're coming home. That range of feeling is like a cat. It's a town you can't understand after just one visit.

Kyoto is a cultural city where "administrative challenges" tend to be more apparent.

Nue, you specialize in creating spaces/community development (area planning) and solving social issues (local employment, population decline, vacant houses), right? For example, I understand that the "Sujin Shinmachi" project started at the request of Kyoto City.

Matsukura:
This project aimed to revitalize the Sujin district, the area where Kyoto City University of Arts was scheduled to relocate, using the two and a half years before construction began. This area has a complex history and a strong negative image, so one of the challenges was how to refresh it.

During my research, I traveled around the area and spoke with the locals, and I discovered that this place has "many fascinating people" and "the food and drinks are surprisingly delicious." So I thought, "Wouldn't it be great to have a place where everyone can eat together and chat?" That's how I got the idea to create a food stall village called "Sujin Shinmachi."

"Sujin Shinmachi" is an area that is right on the border between the local area and the Tanoji district.Here, the townspeople and the people of Sujin sit at the same table and "eat, drink, and talk." Even if there are things they can't understand about each other, I thought that's where it all starts.As a result, despite the limited period of two and a half years since its launch, we were able to attract 420,000 visitors from within the city, outside the prefecture, and even from overseas, and we were able to showcase the vibrancy of the Sujin district through the media.

Has the image of the Sujin district in Kyoto changed since this project?

Matsukura:
I think we probably managed to turn things around very nicely. I don't think there are many people who have a negative impression of this area now. Initially, even people within the Sujin district told us that we should stop using the name "Sujin,"We deliberately kept the name "Takahito" because we wanted everyone to be proud of it.When the food stall village was completed, I remember seeing the local elderly people crying with joy, and thinking, "If these people are happy, then it's all good."

On the other hand, "ARTISTS' FAIR KYOTO" is a project by Kyoto Prefecture.

Matsukura:
Kyoto has many art universities,The problem was that even though there were educational institutions, there was no "market" to sell the artwork.I also teach at an art university, and I'm saddened that many students quit if they can't make a living by the time they're 30. Amidst this, a team led by contemporary artist Noboru Tsubaki from Kyoto Prefecture approached us with a request for this project, including myself. Their request was quite straightforward: "We want to create a place where artists can directly sell their work."

One of the best things about this project is that it has created a lot of new collectors in Japan.In a museum, you maintain a certain distance from the artwork, but we've designed our space, using the "chaos" of Kyoto as our motif, so that you can view the artwork at an "unthinkably close distance."It creates a sense of reality in the artwork, transforming it from something to simply "look at" to something to "buy."Seeing the works they like being bought up one after another inspires them to start negotiating purchases, and some university students even go so far as to directly negotiate with artists because they really want a particular piece.

We worked alongside the team from its inception for three years before handing it over to the next team. Now, it's a huge event attracting buyers from all over the world and generating 30 to 50 million yen in sales over three days.

The "Kyoto Dig Home Project" is a project that deals with the vacant house problem in Kyoto, right?

Matsukura:
This was another project commissioned by Kyoto City, and I worked on it together with the Urban Function Planning Office and BankTwo, who are also part of CONCON.The problem of vacant houses in Kyoto is so serious that it's noticeable even to the citizens, and addressing this issue is the city's top priority.We had been talking for some time about wanting to do something to positively address the challenges facing Kyoto, and when the proposal for vacant houses came up, we formed a team at CONCON and submitted our proposal.

Here, we've adopted the concept of "DIG," aiming to make vacant properties enjoyable as hidden gems. The website is structured like the A and B sides of a record, with a pop design for the pages aimed at potential migrants—something you wouldn't see from a government website—and a more organized page for vacant property consultations. To help people see the vacant property problem as their own, we've also created a board game called "What to Do About Vacant Houses? Card Game."

Matsukura:
We also held an event called the "Kyoto Vacant House Conference," inviting interesting players from all over Japan who are doing a good job of addressing the issue of vacant houses. On the day of the conference, more than 700 people participated, both in person and online, and together we thought about the future possibilities of vacant houses.

This project has apparently been ongoing for about three years since 2022. Does this mean that the city of Kyoto is starting to see its significance and results?

Matsukura:
We have to give it our all, otherwise the population won't increase. For about three years now, we've been continuously working to change the system. Banks used to not lend money to dilapidated single-story houses or houses without road access, but we've been consulting with banks to find ways to make it work, and it seems like we're steadily moving forward. Everyone is working together on an equal footing to do something about vacant houses.

I see. Since all three projects you mentioned were commissioned by the government, I get the impression that Kyoto has a high level of awareness regarding local issues.

Matsukura:
Kyoto is probably one of the benchmarks in the world for cultural cities where problems are most likely to arise first.Kyoto receives 7,000 million inbound tourists annually, so there's a huge influx of people and money.While the government needs to function smoothly, problems are also easily exposed, and there are many things that need to be addressed. I think that's why the government tends to act quickly, especially when it comes to cultural projects.

A "wild framework" where the project's approach changes every time.

You've been working on some interesting projects recently, haven't you?

Matsukura:
It's the sound and visual book "Hear And There," right?At Nue, when we have a lot of freedom in our work, we always try "methods we've never done before."What we did in this project was to bring photographers and musicians along with the project members for the "research" work, which is essential for us.

We started by just deciding on the rules, and without touching on general information about Shiga such as tourist guides, we listened to stories about interesting places from Shiga natives and went to those places. At first, we were made to climb a mountain so high it felt like we'd die (laughs), but the photographer would take pictures of the scenery that resonated with him. That would then inspire the musician to do field recordings. The photographer would take pictures the moment they reacted to the sounds... and so on, we spent a year traveling all over Shiga.

Matsukura:
We gathered members from Kyoto and Shiga who were fighting their own battles like a gang, but we also made it a rule not to "create a leader." The owner was also a member, holding the camera during filming, so it was a creative delinquent kind of production style (laughs). The Shiga we captured through our sensibilities was completely different from the typical image of Shiga, so we decided to make a book out of it. That became the sound and visual book "Hear and There."
(If you'd like to learn more about "Hear and There", please check it out.)CLICK HEREPlease also see the article.

Even so, the way things are done each time is unique. It's the flat relationships, and there are no business frameworks. Instead, you get strays, gangs, creative delinquents (laughs). It's like a wild framework.

Matsukura:
Yes, that's how Nue is made. Nue was born from the idea that there might be a way to make things that is different from the so-called commercial forms.I believe that we are entering an era where a more "primitive methodology for business transactions" will gain value.

Kyoto creators create their own sphere of influence.

I have the impression that many creators in Kyoto are quite unique.

Matsukura:
Kyoto is a fascinating place for independent creators who don't get a regular job. About 10% of them are punk and anarchic. In the generation below me, there's Ryu Mieno and Kenta Kawara from VOU, and they all become independent even though they don't know how to get work (laughs).At art universities in Kyoto, the line between artists and creators is blurred, and you end up with kids who are a hybrid of artist and creator.Moreover, what's more, recently, it's not just that people are making a living from it, but it's also starting to gain international recognition—that's the current state of creativity in Kyoto.

Matsukura:
Among the generations after Mieno-kun, there's also Chucky-kun, a designer and band member, who's interesting, and Studio Monoya, which focuses on product-based manufacturing, is also good. There's a unique Kyoto vibe to how these kids, who didn't fit in with the economic principles of the creative world, are starting to create their own spheres of influence.

西：
Among Kyoto-based creators, I like the manga artist Sukerakko. She draws manga using Kyoto's streets and restaurants as her subject matter, and it's like a bible for my life in Kyoto. I also like the manga artist Igashita Mii, and the writer Domon Ran. Kyoto has many writers and independent publishers, and new bookstores like Ogaki Shoten are thriving, which I feel is proof that people need books.

西：
There are interesting people outside of the writing community, for example, Takumi Miyashita, who established "Com-ion," a comfortable space that blends seamlessly into everyday life, in Okazaki, Kyoto. I believe that business creation—raising money, planning, establishing a space, and continuously nurturing relationships with people—is also a form of creativity.Kyoto is a city where many people create their own unique worldviews in all kinds of fields, not just in the "creative" realms of design and video, but also in bookstores, spaces, and more.

Matsukura:
I think that a global trend is emerging to measure the percentage of creators, artists, and other "expressive individuals" in each city, and I believe Kyoto has a fairly high percentage. Kyoto's environment is well-suited for creative work.

西：
I think the key is finding a balance with nature. The time spent walking towards the Kamo River, or just relaxing by the river, becomes a time for genuine inspiration.

Kitayama:
Creators in Kyoto are truly passionate. They also have a kind of wild, independent spirit (laughs). Our generation is often grouped together as the "cost-effective, time-saving generation," but we're so far removed from that cost-effectiveness that it's almost like an illusion.

"CONCON," a collaborative community for creators.

"SHIKIAMI CONCON, the Co-creation Autonomous Zone," apparently started in 2019 with the idea of ​​creating a place like the story of "Swimmy" where creators could gather.

Matsukura:
The owner of a plot of land with three row houses and a parking lot approached me and asked if I could do something new there. Since it was close to my home, I thought, "Okay, let's make it a studio." I had been talking with a friendly real estate agent about using shipping containers for a while, so I thought it was finally time to use them. Kyoto has the strictest landscape regulations in Japan, but I thought, why not create an "anarchic building" that completely defies those regulations? So I went to Osaka Port and bought 19 shipping containers.

The soft team and the hard team worked together, and at the construction site, they were stacking the containers with a crane like playing Tetris. We couldn't help but laugh, even though we were the ones who suggested it.

Regarding the software, I did write a proposal, but then I thought it would be quicker to show the picture book "Swimmy," so I showed it to the owner and presented it to him saying, "Let's do this." In "Swimmy," there is a page where "countless small fish imitate one large fish,"I think that future teams won't be based on capital relationships, but rather on small teams, like little fish, building trust and collaborating with each other to create a larger team. That's what I think the future of teams will be.I wondered if we could create a place like that, a "nest for creators."
(Matsukura's article on 'Swimmy' isCLICK HERE(You can read it here.)

Matsukura:
Another thing that surprised me the most when I came to Kyoto was the Jizo Bon festival. It's an event where the whole town gathers around Jizo statues to pray for the healthy growth of children.During that time, the streets are blocked off, tables are set up, everyone brings out any leftover alcohol and food they have at home, and everyone eats and drinks together. These kinds of festivals suddenly erupt all over Kyoto during the summer, and the feeling of euphoria is incredible.I wanted to try something like an evolved version of this Jizo Bon festival. It's a mashup of "the joy of a festival" and "a nest for creators."

In Kyoto, Kyoto University and Kyoto Seika University advocate student autonomy, and there's a general atmosphere of "autonomy" in the city, so we decided to make this place a "creators' autonomous district." That's why the tagline is "Co-creation Autonomous District."Here, we've completely changed the production process and are deliberately choosing not to create things ourselves (=Nue).All I did was "I want to create a place like Swimmy." The name, logo, and design were all created by the residents themselves.

What kind of activities take place at CONCON on a daily basis?

Kitayama:
The organizing committee acts as the facilitator, planning various events and holding a "Residents' Association" meeting on the last Friday of every month. The Residents' Association is a gathering where residents, regardless of their titles or positions, drink together and chat. External guests sometimes comment, "It's like the energy of the high-growth economic period!" and "It's one of a kind!" We realize just how special the daily atmosphere is, and how "unusual" it may seem to outsiders.

Matsukura:
The tenants all come from diverse professions, but they support each other with personal issues and concerns that can't be addressed within the framework of their companies. For example, if I'm struggling with a business issue, a business owner from a different field might just drop by, and we can naturally talk about it. That might be CONCON's strength. You can also have alcohol at "TAREL" near the entrance,Saying "That was a great job" in the office has a different impact than saying "That proposal you made the other day was fantastic" in a setting like TAREL.

Kitayama:
When I see Matsukura-san drinking at TAREL, I feel like going over and talking to him. Asking him to "make time for me" during work hours has a slightly different nuance. Lately, more and more people from outside the community are coming to visit our "community association," and even just drinking together and having a casual conversation can lead to someone else's realization about their problems, or unexpected ideas being born. I think the "power of the place" is amazing.

"Drinking" is at the root of Nue's creativity.

From what I've heard, "drinking occasions" seem to be a key keyword. Nue, you mentioned that even in your projects, "meetings + drinking parties" are a set package, where project members gather around a table and drink together.

西：
At Nue, in our relationships with clients, we often "meet them as people before focusing on business." We first get to know them as individuals over drinks, and then business opportunities arise later. Even clients who initially come to us for business often come to Nue for drinks first. We've found that creating an opportunity to "get to know each other as people" is ultimately more efficient.

That's interesting. Relationships start not with "work," but with "people."

Matsukura:
Kyoto is full of eccentric people. There are a lot of researchers from Kyoto University, artists, and people who are exploring something. In bars, you often hear people saying things like, "I'm currently engrossed in this research, and this is what I still don't understand," and at the same table, there are people like me—artists, researchers, monks, etc.—with completely different jobs, hobbies, and interests, and we all clash, each offering our own perspective and answering someone's question.

I get a lot of input from those discussions, and I feel like everything, from my work to everything else, is connected. That might be a unique charm of Kyoto. I don't have any evidence for this yet, but apparently, between the University of Tokyo and Kyoto University, both top-tier academic institutions, Kyoto University has far more Nobel laureates (laughs). If that's true, I think it's because of the difference in environment. I think that when people of all races sit at the same table, drink, and talk, there are more opportunities for a sudden creative leap.

It's the same with Sujin Shinmachi, isn't it? It's like there's a "drinking place" at the root of creativity, for communication, input, ideas, and meeting people as individuals. Is there a "drinking culture" there as a cultural thing?

Matsukura:
Kyoto is a city where everything is condensed into a small area, so everyone can walk home.Not having to worry about the last train is probably a big advantage.It's frightening, but sometimes they call me at 2 AM. So, it means we can have deep conversations late into the night.

Things I want to do as Nue and as an individual.

Finally, please tell us what you would like to do in the future, both as Nue and as an individual.

Kitayama:
"I've wanted to transform the 'negativity' in people's lives into something that makes life easier," I thought since I was a student. However, in my previous job, the issues were so broad, like solving poverty, that I couldn't really make it my own. But I thought, maybe if I focused on people closer to me, I could make it my own.

What I'm aiming for right now is to be like Kamaji from Spirited Away (laughs). Like someone who can draw from many drawers and concoct the right medicine for each person. I think now is the time to increase the number of such drawers I have.

西：
I have children, and I've realized that the world we share is a small one, about 500 meters in radius, and that the number of acquaintances we have and the people we can rely on when we're in trouble really impact our happiness. Sometimes, even when we're eating dinner together, it's not very exciting, so I'd like to create a place like a "half-open neighborhood kitchen" where we can cook and eat together with the people around us.

Matsukura:
For me, Nue is a place of experimentation. What I want to do is for Nue to transcend the boundaries of a corporation and aim to become a "Nue-like phenomenon." Nue is a chimeric creature that appears in mythology, and I call it "Nue-like" to mean something like "something that cannot be explained." The Nue brand is characterized by its diverse work and the fact that what we create is different every time. That's why the company logo is also blurred.

We have a lot of members, both from within and outside the company, so we want to create a kind of "Nue-like" ecosystem. CONCON is one experiment in that regard, and from now on we want to expand on that and create a biotope (biological habitat) that is not based on the old framework of a corporation.

What do you think the future holds for creators and craftsmanship in Kyoto?

Matsukura:
Currently, Kyoto is being viewed negatively, partly due to the impact on inbound tourism.Originally, aside from temples, shrines, and public baths, Kyoto didn't really have much of its characteristic charm, even when I was in college. That's precisely why I'm interested in "how Kyoto will become more interesting from here on out?"There's no other city quite like it, one that's becoming even more chaotic due to inbound tourism. A city of tradition and history is transforming into a dystopian chaos. Right now, I want to enjoy the changes in this chaotic Kyoto.

西：
It's not just the creators, but Kyoto's restaurants are also fascinating. There are many people creating creative things, both in terms of food and atmosphere, and before I knew it, I was overwhelmingly noticing "creators" in the broadest sense.I myself have always wanted to blend work and life without separating them, and to forge relationships with things other than people, such as the Kamo River and nature.I think Kyoto is a city with the capacity to build relationships and launch things.

That's all!

This concludes our interview with Nue-san. What did you think?

What I found unique about Nue-san was "her unconventional approach to projects" and "her different project management methods each time." This is just speculation, but frameworks and project management processes are merely formalities, and before you know it, they can become just a framework with no substance. They're likely to be replaced by AI in many cases. In response to these issues,I get the impression that Nue is trying to tackle the challenges before her with a "physical (bodily) sense," a more "human sensibility."That attitude was also evident in the "Hear And There" project.

Another thing is "drinking."This also relates to the framework discussion, but it's not a case of having a proposal, a problem, and a framework for solving that problem,True feelings, worries, and challenges emerge from more familiar, everyday conversations.And the importance of each person talking about this and that while sharing drinks. From that background, each person's "human" side also comes into focus. As Mr. Nishi also mentioned, the nuance that we should do what we can as "people" before doing work came through, and that's what I found interesting about this interview! If I ever go to Kyoto, I would definitely like to visit CONCON!

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If you'd like, we'd love to hear your thoughts on social media or elsewhere (we'd also love to hear suggestions for topics you'd like to hear about, or people you'd like us to talk to!).

"GOTO-CHI CREATIVE!" has traveled to Sapporo, Nagasaki, Niigata, and Kyoto so far. Next up... how about Shikoku? Shikoku in the summer... it sounds wonderful, doesn't it? I wonder what kind of creativity and work styles await us there. I'm looking forward to it.

Thank you for reading to the end.
Have a wonderful day!
This was the iDID Magazine editorial team!

*This interview is a collaborative project with the October issue of Web Designing magazine, which will be released on August 18th.Web DesigningHere's a summary version; in this article, you can read the complete version.